God's pen is natural law, and it is an automatic writer.
Suppose I made the bizarre claim that the words on this essay were written by God. Instantly your mind would start sounding "red alerts." You would know there was a better explanation of authorship, because God's signature is not in evidence here. At the same time, though, you would not lose faith in God because of my wild claim.
The extreme example above was intended to give you a sense for how scientists would react to the idea that God or some higher intelligence individually created each form of life. They would produce the same cringe as you did. God explains everything, but should not be associated with our ignorance. Scientists want details. They want to know how life got started and how it changed over billions of years.
Natural explanation, contrary to the views of some (like Richard Dawkins), does NOT displace God. Many modern theologies, for example, embrace religious naturalism – the view that religion is capable of accepting nature as it presents itself. Rev. Michael Dowd is a Christian evangelist who discovered evolution to be religiously inspiring in his book Thank God for Evolution. Rabbi Natan Slifkin is an evolutionist, an Orthodox Jew, and author of The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution. Both of these theists argue that basic Darwinism need not be in conflict with basic religion.
Religious naturalism fully embraces physical nature. Nature in all its glorious (and often not so glorious) lawful details (as revealed by science) is simply how the universe works. Life is intimately tied to that nature. In my opinion, religion missteps when it makes any propositions that violate natural law.
There are a few leaders of the Intelligent Design movement who do not appreciate my arguments above. They insist that nature cannot account for the origins and evolution of life. One of the leaders of the movement is Cambridge trained philosopher of science Dr. Stephen C. Meyer of the Discovery Institute. He wonders why we cannot find an intelligent creator in life, even though we readily recognize rational agents behind the Rosetta Stone or behind cryptographic codes. Why does DNA not qualify? (I will eventually answer this last question).
William Paley in his 1802 Natural Theology argued that if a watch was found on the ground, we would realize immediately that it had a watchmaker. To Paley, God is the watchmaker of nature and of life. Such an argument from design is fraught with problems, and the best grade we could give to such a view in these scientific times is that it is an extraordinarily inadequate and incomplete answer. Most scientists would correctly argue that such a grade would be generous.
Suppose we found an 18th century British watch, maybe even one owned by Paley. We could examine it and determine its maker, and we might even suspect that Paley once owned it. Explaining the watch with the watchmaker and its original owner would bring the question of origin to a reasonable stop. With proper detective work, we would understand the provenance of the watch. We could then auction the watch and probably make a significant profit.
But notice something: explaining the watchmaker (or even Paley) with God as the Maker does not end the questioning. The questions only begin. Why, how, where, and when did God make people? Who created God? Who created God's God? And, the questions could go on forever.
Science is the process of narrowing and refining the questions of origin. "God" as explanation opens all lines of questions, narrowing nothing. The use of "God" as explanation merely postpones and defers the subsequent necessity for natural explanation.
Why do creationist-motivated thinkers describe God as operating like a "human" agent?" Why would God engineer living entities like humans would engineer non-living entities? The Intelligent Design movement surely seems to believe in a God that cannot make efficient use of nature. Why would God not use nature, strictly?
Science does not like to explain nature using the unexplained. There is an important scientific attitude, adopted by the majority of scientists, known as methodological naturalism. Scientists operate as if all events in the universe have natural causes. Science is the process of seeking natural cause. "God" as a concept is inadequate as explanation because God supersedes nature and is unexplained.
Objects in nature, like DNA, may superficially look supernatural. But, claims of the supernatural have a bad reputation for not holding up to rational scrutiny. So, again, why cannot scientists look at DNA and detect a creating intelligence? DNA is like a chalkboard full of writing. Half of the writing would be extraordinarily beautiful with occasional errors, but half the writing also would be nonfunctioning nonsense -- junk. Much of the chalkboard would have partially erased messages. Some of the authorship would come from viruses.
If God directly wrote DNA, the work was imperfect. Scientists look at the nucleotide sequences in DNA and are amazed that a living organism can be the result. DNA has no engineering polish. Instead, DNA is a mish mash from eons of natural tinkering. DNA sequences looks just like they would be expected to look like, if natural selection had operated on them. If the pen of life had a brand, its name would be evolution.
We can be utterly amazed because God's pen of life needs no one to hold it – but the pen is still God's.
Copyright © 2011 S.Faux (Email: foxgoku54 [at] gmail [d0t] c0m; URL: http://mormoninsights.blogspot.com). Readers may distribute this post for noncommercial purposes provided such distributing is of the entire post, including author's copyright and contact information. All other rights reserved.

Please feel free to give my blog site a "Blogged.com" rating and review by clicking here.
Support Mormon Insights by making a COMMENT.





32 comments:
Very interesting post and I must say I love your comparison you start out with saying these were God's words. That was clever. :)
My favorite book, along these lines is "Life Solution" by Simon Conway Morris. He does a convincing job of showing that convergence in evolution very much hints at a divine signature. Moreover, Morris suggests that if their is a rational mind behind evolution (which belief he defends well) that convergence we see in biology implies this rational mind must have intentionally hoped to see humans as an end-product for, in contrast to Steven J Gould, Conway convincingly shows that if you could "run the tape backwards and start again" you would get humans every time. (And way should a meaningless/purposeless process have such a virtue?)
As you know, Simon Conway Morris' authority in evolution is not to be taken lightly though I'm sure many people squirm when they here him say convergence in evolution and the inevitability of humans from such convergence hints at a divine origin to the science going on. But, going back to the laws of nature containing "God's signature", it is interesting to me to he such a high profile scientist be able to "see the signature".
Sory for all my typos above. :)
Joseph Smidt:
Thanks for responding. Yes, I very much respect Simon Conway Morris. However, I think he may take his arguments on convergent evolution too far. For example, I do wonder what would have happened if the dinosaurs had not gone extinct. If that great meteor had not hit the earth, then maybe the story of evolution would have been very different.
S.Faux,
You bring up a good point with the dinosaurs and extinction (and good enough that Morris examines takes on this point and has, I believe, some intelligent stuff to say..)
But one nice thing about Morris' claims is I believe in principle they are testable. (Unlike many of the things Dawkin's says about God.) We don't have to "run the tape backwards" if we are ever fortunate enough to discover life on one of these earth-like planets we are finding.
If we find that life on those planets have the same convergences we enjoy, camera eyes, human-like intelligence and sociality, warm-bloodedness, singing and language, etc... that have evolved independently on our own planet then I think this will provide a reasonable test. This won't prove that God is the author of evolution, but it would go a long way into verifying/falsifying if evolution seems to have a direction favoring human-like attributes. (And then raising the question why this is the case.)
So, if only we can find some complex life on other planets! Then we can start testing, what is to me, a very interesting idea.
Joseph Smidt:
I am inclined to differ a little bit. I don't expect intelligent alien life to be humanoid. Come to think of it, I would be amazed at any form of alien life. I do wonder how rare we are.
Well the book you describe interests me because at least I can appreciate a scientist who both knows evolution is true and can see God's hand in it in some tangible way you can describe specifically to the public. Not just some abstract way where you say you see God but can't point to specifically where.
So I guess this non-Mormon has the ability to do something LDS biologists can't. Say evolution is true and that while studying evolution they also see a purpose and direction behind it demonstrating the hand of God. But, I guess like the Jews who rejected Christ right in front of them while Gentiles later caught on, it is the non-LDS biologists who can catch on to God's hand giving a purpose and direction to evolution while the LDS ones say they have gone too far.
Rick:
I assure you that there are many LDS evolutionary scientists. They teach at BYU and across the nation.
Evolution is for everyone -- from the atheist to the theist. It is as factual as the world is round, and thus no scientist from any particular religion can easily ignore it.
S. Faux,
I'm not sure I follow. I think the question on everybodies mind is:
In what way did God create the world that cannot also be attributed to me?
In other words, how are we to interpret "God's pen is nature" is a way that is not totally vacuous?
Jeff G.:
Sorry, but we are not following each other. I am not sure what you are asking.
My essay attempts to argue that a magic-world view is not necessary. I think it is possible to be both scientific and religious. How is that vacuous? I would love to hear some reactions, especially if I have been confusing.
S. Faux,
I do not agree with your assessment of it all. In your naturalism approach, "Darwinian evolution" as the general masses call it, there is no pen whatsoever held by God or any other magical deity of fantasy character. This is merely an invention of theistic evolutionists to comply their beliefs in God with the godless theory of Darwinian evolution.
That said, ID does not ascribe to any supernatural principle to explain why life is intelligent. By saying this I am using it how you evolutionists like to use the word "supernatural". You guys use the word "supernatural" to invent some magical deity who disobeys the laws of nature and physics in general. But us ID'ers do not work this way. We do not think this way, nor do we place some magical deity in every place where things don't make sense.
We believe in a logical, natural system as well. When we look at DNA and other vital essential building blocks of life we do so in the manner of observation, testing and study to come to the conclusions we base our ideas off of. One thing paramount to understanding the heart of the matter at hand is that under Darwinian evolution, there can be no "God's pen in nature". This is the invention of theistic evolutionists and not part of any general Darwinian theory or ideal. ID on the other hand not only believe in a true God's pen (intelligence) in nature, but we have ample proof that dismisses any proof of random generation of life from non-life subtance and material.
Evolutionists do not really like to talk about the first generation of life (abiogenesis in their theory) because there is no proof yet in their scientific research that shows how life could have possibly originated. They will not appeal to God because Darwinian evolution will not allow it. By not appealing to God, they must come up with an alternate reason besides an intelligent process for explaining how life could have possibly arose.
So, the thruth be known, you can't really espouse any real critical placement of God in nature whatsoever. So, I ask, where exactly is God's pen in nature?
Rob Osborn
Rob Osborn:
Believe it or not: I look forward to your reactions because they don't beat around the bush.
I reject ID's claim that it is not theologically motivated. The underlying religious motivations were completely exposed in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial in 2005. In any case, there is no evidence of a human-like intellectual intervention in the evolution of life.
As to how life originated about 3.5 billion years ago, you are correct that science does not know the details. There is a lot of research left to do in that area.
But, I would be unwilling to jeopardize my concept of God by insisting that life could not have arisen by a natural process. Nature is NOT in conflict with God.
I refuse to think of nature as an anti-religious or anti-God process.
Like Rev. Dowd and Rabbi Slifkin, I find evolution to be religiously inspiring -- because God and nature are more clever than humans.
S. Faux,
Of all the evolutionists I debate with I enjoy dialogue with you because we can be honest and forward with each other.
That said, let's not beat around the bush here. You mentioned that evolution can't yet answer the "details" about how life arose. You make it sound like evolution knows the broad picture outline- kind of like a sattelite picture that is slightly fuzzy in some areas. The truth is though, evolution doesn't even know the broad picture here. They are still trying to configure the outline itself. Forget the details, evolution has still to answer the first broad steps in how life could have arisen at all.
I will agree with you that there is a part of ID that is religiously motivated, but, then again, I find most things I do in life at least in part religiously motivated. When I study the nature of man and how he thinks and acts in the natural world I can't help but to place religious ideas and doctrines at the forefront. This also applies to how i view my existance- why do I exist. I can't help but to place my actual Creator in that place that establishes why I am here.
Evolution is godless because like I said before it cannot ever appeal to any deity or intelligence to explain how life arose. So, as I see it, the "pen" you see God holding is either make believe or truly does not exist. You have yet to show in any small detail just how God could possibly fit into why we exist.
Rob Osborn
Rob Osborn:
Yes, I do contend that evolutionary science has a correct picture of the broad outlines of life, but is fuzzy on some of the details.
No, we do NOT yet have a complete natural mechanism for getting life started in the first place. But, I am convinced it is just a matter of time.
Our theology, yours and mine, teaches us that we humans are living in this mortal life for a purpose. I greatly value that theology. But, science knows nothing about that theology.
Therefore, as a scientist I cannot pretend to know how God fits into the broad strokes of nature. My personal philosophy of life, however, is NOT godless. I have faith that I have a lot left to learn about the world.
Even so, I believe in a God that CAN make efficient use of nature. God does NOT need to keep the Earth spinning. It can spin by itself. God does NOT need to glue two atoms of hydrogen to oxygen in order to make water. The quantum properties of atoms will take care of that. DNA is a string of atoms, and I don't think those atoms violate ANY natural laws.
So, do you accuse chemists of being godless? I bet you like chemistry. Similarly, I don't think we LDS life scientists have any need to struggle with evolution, which is just part of lawful nature.
Again, I cannot easily conceive how science can be turned into an anti-God activity. It is neutral. True, I don't think Richard Dawkins helps my argument. But, I think he and his followers are at the extremes.
To me, evolution is for everyone. There is ultimately nothing to fear, as long as we LDS parents teach to our children that God "allows" nature to operate by laws on its own.
I really do want my children to go to church and to believe in dinosaurs, without any worries about BIG conflicts.
But, Rob, here is where I do appreciate you: You are committed to the gospel, and you are willing to defend it to the hilt. You and I would never have an argument on Sundays. It's just those other days of the week when we have a few verbal tumbles. ;)
And, no, I cannot answer all your deep theological questions. Science is NOT the only source of knowledge, but I do think it is the most clear and consistent, even if not perfectly so.
S. Faux,
I understand where you are coming from- your profession, background, credentials, etc. But it still begs the question of just how or where your view of the Creator fits in. You keep speaking of "nature" as if it is completely separate from God- that God himself is not even the reason why we are here. This confuses me because LDS doctrine teaches us that without God, nothing, not even "nature" would exist. So which is it? Do you believe God is essential for nature to exist or does ho exist outside of nature? If so, then what role if any does he have in our existance?
Rob Osborn
Rob Osborn:
I hate to be evasive, but to me a round earth spinning on its axis has no theological implications and neither does evolutionary science.
Regardless, I assume God makes use of natural law for His own purpose, but I have NO reason to believe that God violates natural law in the process.
I think it is a mistake to think of God fitting into nature the way a human would fit into nature. Humans like to manipulate events by pushing, stirring, modulating, banging, cutting, burning, etc. I just have NO reason to believe that God works that way.
So, you ask me how does God fit in? I have faith that He does, but His ways are not my ways. Therefore, I am stuck with the study of nature, which is my only clue. Consequently, I am very concerned with carefully observing it -- through science alone.
But, science is NOT my religion. Further, I have no desire at all to letting science become a replacement for my religion.
I think for the first time ever, I am tentatively on Rob's side.
What I was trying to get across earlier is that if the pen of nature is automatic, in what sense is it God's pen at all? Why can't I run around claiming that my pen is nature and so forth? Doesn't scientific reasoning, in fact, lead us to the belief that the automatic writing pen has no owner at all?
Now I understand that you have faith that God is the creator for non-scientific reasons, so the question isn't really WHY you think the pen is God's. Rather, the question is more one of content: What in the world does it mean to say that a pen which does all it's writing on its own is being "owned" or "used" be somebody?
Hey everyone (Sorry this is soooo long),
I believe this is your concern: Usually if a “real” pen is mine I can come up with some type of physical proof hinting it really is my pen. For example, my initials may be carved in it, it may have my DNA on it, maybe I can up with a photograph showing me holding it, etc... Since it is possible to come up with tangible evidence/proof a pen is mine in the real world, why should should nature be any different if it is God’s pen?
Am I right in saying this is your concern? If it is God’s pen you should expect something tangible linking God to the pen?
If this is your concern I doubly encourage you to read Life’s Solution by Dr. Morris. *Not* because I am saying the book is true. S. Faux has already dismissed it and he is a real biologist not me. However, it shows that high-profile evolutionary biologists exist that think the very “markings” you are looking for do exist. Again, Dr. Morris may be wrong about this particular marking, but it shows even reputable evolutionists admit evolution is open to such markings.
To be continued in my next comment...
Part 2:
So let me give a sense of his argument by analogy. He does not use this analogy, I came up with it after reading your comments, but I think it works:
Nobody denies throwing two dice is a random process. *Completely random!* However, even though is it random, you can ask: Is it possible, after viewing enough outcomes to perceive the numbers are not any ordinary random numbers are but in fact “special” random numbers produced by two dice? Yes! Here’s how.
First, even though it is 100% random, the numbers are constrained to being integers 1-12. Second, there is only 1 way to get 2, 1 way to get 12, 2 ways to get 3, 2 ways to get 11, 3 ways to get 4, ...etc and so after the dice is thrown, *even though it is random*, they produce integers 1-12 with the ratios 1:2:3:...etc...:2:1 for numbers 1-12.
Therefore, if you see a bunch of random numbers 1-12 with that exact ratio structure is it possible to ascribe an author to those numbers? Yes! The author being: the numbers must have been produced by a pair of dice or something *equivalent* to a pair of dice. Though they are completely random, still, they have a very specific author.
Furthermore, if you “replayed the tape”, IE... re-threw the dice a several more times, you would expect to get back the *exact* same structure if the “author” really is a pair of dice.
*And Further* this exact structure is always reproduced without the throwiner trying to influence the outcome. If I am the dice thrower, I don’t have to intervene in *any* way, and yet I can still have confidence the structure I am aiming for will be produced.
Part 3:
By a similar line of reasoning, as is done by Dr. Morris, on one hand evolution is *completely* random, but on the other he believes the diversity produced seems to have a “structure”, which he sees in convergence, like the “structure” on the random numbers produced by the dice described above. Therefore, he believes it is possible to say something about the “Author” of evolution beyond “He” being a meaningless process.
In that way he sees “the pen of evolution” being linked to a tangible author beyond meaninglessness. The “structure” of the randomness of evolution, for him, becomes the tale-tale sign of God being the author.
Now again, S. Faux, unlike me, is a real biologist so if he says Dr. Morris is probably wrong then you should believe him over me. But I would just suggest, just because evolution can proceed forward randomly without intermediate intervention *doesn’t* mean it can never be hinted at that it may have something behind its randomness more than meaninglessness. Hence, *I* think in principle it is possible to see a tangible “hint” of God in science, though I admit I don’t know if we will ever see one we can definitely say for sure.
For the BoM prophets it was quite easy for them to see nature and see God moving in his glory. They didn't really question the validity of "if" God fits in nature. They saw him as the author of nature itself. Seeing nature for them was a way they could witness that there must be a God. I like to think that they believed in design in nature.
Evolutionists undoubtedly ask= "what is design? there is no design in nature". Now we can all agree that DNA carries intelligent information. We can even see how it as a code is a design. But the moment we go from there to stating that it "looks designed" evolutionists get off the train in a hurry! Never mind the near impossible logistics involved in the replication process of DNA, the amount of intelligence involved in reading the DNA, then building an extremely complex life form capable of self repair. iT has all the signs of "intelligence" and "design" written all over it.
We cannot even create computer programs capable of generating and communicating novel intelligence and yet our bodies are made up of billions of supercomputers that do just that! An undeniable fact in nature is the law of biogenesis- that life only comes from life forms to begin with. We could say that if life is intelligence- true intelligence and that it contains "design elements", then life only comes from intelligence and design to begin with.
Evolution has a hard uphill battle if they are going to insist that at some point on this planet life arose by itself outside of any other life-form or intelligent cause! Under this premise they will never find the truth!
I will be quite blunt here- If one espouses a strict ideal of Darwinian evolution, there is no "god's pen" in nature!
Rob Osborn
Joseph Smidt & Rob Osborn:
Thanks, both of you, for your deep thinking on this matter. I have learned from both of you.
I love this verse (D&C88:41) -- "He [God] comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever."
Nature does not operate by magic, and therefore I assume that God does not as well.
Nature operates lawfully, even if automatically, blindly, and at times randomly (such as in quantum mechanics). All of these properties are tied to God one way or another. In other words, I am happy to accept nature as it reveals itself, for nothing I could ever find would displace God.
Rob,
"I will be quite blunt here- If one espouses a strict ideal of Darwinian evolution, there is no "god's pen" in nature!"
Please don't say this for two reasons:
1. History shows that the "if this science X is true then God isn't" often fails. Very relious pios people were saying things like "if the earth isn't the center of the universe then God doesn't exist because..." and they were wrong.
Please don't allow these same problems enter the LDS faith. It is much more helpful to say: God exists even if science shows X to be true, because this is more accurate.
2. And I am trying to say this as nice as possible. Truman G. Madsen points out that the only people who say the type of thing you just said are people who only have a philosophical "knowledge" of the existence of God.
For example, I *know* my wife exists. I have met her, talked with her, held her hand, etc... I would *never* say if science X is true then my wife doesn't exist. I "know" she exists and *nothing* reveled in science would ever cause me to say "well then in that case her existence isn't possible" as that would be absurd.
So please, don't say statements like that because if on has a true "knowledge" of the existence of God, like my "true" knowledge that my wife exists, means that one would never question God's existence no matter what was revealed or believed by science.
I mean, if somehow science could 100% prove God had no involvement in the creation and I had a philosophical belief in God this becomes a problem. However, if my knowledge is because I have come back to His presence and thrust my hands into His side and felt the nail markings in His hands and Feet then the scientific proof, *even if I knew it was true*, would not hurt in any way my testimony of God's existence.
If science were to prove 100% that God had nothing to do with the creation then the entire mormon religion could be chalked up as a fraud! Belief in the creation coupled with the absolute purpose for the Creator as being essential for our existance is paramount to understanding and believing in mormonism. If he is thus "essential", then he absolutely had something to do physically with our existance.
When we seek to displace the Creator from explaining the reasons of how we came into existance we might as well renounce mormonism!
Rob Osborn
Rob,
"the entire mormon religion could be chalked up as a fraud! "
Well, again, this just demonstrates a philosophical understanding of God, the Church and science and how they relate.
Once one has received a *sure* witness of the truth of the existence of God and His church then *nothing* that could ever possibly be discovered in science can take that away. Otherwise, that witness would not be sure because it is prone to contradiction. :)
I am perfectly happy obtaining the sure witness that God exists and His church is true peacefully knowing there is nothing to fear that could ever come from science because my knowledge is 100% sure.
I will let you grapple with philosophical problems with God and science theory X that are meaningless after a sure witness is received.
Another way to say this is once I have received a sure witness God exists and the church is true philosophical problems others grapple with fail to worry me. Just as people who deny special relativity because they can't grapple with apparent paradoxes doesn't worry me that special relativity is true. It's their problem, not mine, after *I* know it is true.
While I do agree with Rob on some level, I think the agreement is fairly shallow.
My objection is that the pen metaphor does not lend itself well to a context of theistic evolution. After all, if a pen can write all by itself, we aren't really talking about a pen at all, but an actual mind.
But here is exactly where things get pretty muddy, largely because I don't think our concepts just aren't as clear as we assume them to be.
For example, do evolutionists think there is "design" in nature? Rob says that they can't because they don't acknowledge a creator. I, on the other hand, say that there is, it's just that we have discovered that design doesn't require a designer. Rob says that this isn't "real" design. I say it is. And so it goes, without any person ever able to provide some reason why one conceptual analysis should be preferred to the other.
Getting back to the pen metaphor, Rob and I agree that if a pen writes automatically, this means that the pen and not its owner is the author of the sonnett which it writes. Rob takes this as a clear illustration of how evolution entails atheism. I, on the other hand, am not so sure.
What does it mean to "own" the pen? What does it mean to be "automatic"? And what does it mean to be an "author"? I simply don't think these concepts are fine grained enough to justify the conclusions Rob draws from the metaphor. Personally, I prefer to just abandon the metaphor.
SFaux,
I used to believe that the Lord uses and follows natural laws to create worlds. I don't accept such notions anymore. I think that it is wrong to say that He is beholden to the laws of nature that we discover (e.g., macroevolution) His ways are not our ways, and His understanding is not our understanding. He lives a higher, celestial law that we cannot comprehend, yet we like to talk as if he follows the telestial laws of nature that we've discovered. Moreover, He *is* the law; that is quite a bit different from notions of Him following laws.
Re:"Even so, I believe in a God that CAN make efficient use of nature. God does NOT need to keep the Earth spinning. It can spin by itself. God does NOT need to glue two atoms of hydrogen to oxygen in order to make water. The quantum properties of atoms will take care of that. DNA is a string of atoms, and I don't think those atoms violate ANY natural laws."
I used to think this way as well. I think it is misguided. The Light of Christ upholds and sustains everything throughout all His creations. It *delivers* laws that keep our physical world orderly (D&C 88: 12-13). If the LoC were taken away, our world would fall into chaos and return to matter unorganized. So I guess what I am trying to say is that His presence is required.
Always your admiring blog reader,
Dave C.
Dave C.:
In theological terms, I too would be uncomfortable with the phrase "God follows." I defer to D&C88:41, cited above. Without God there is no existence. But, such a claim does NOT answer how things work. Science is concerned with how things work. I want Telestial mechanical details. I would also love to study Celestial details, but that will have to wait. Until that time, I cannot guess as to what they are.
S. Faux,
Please don't smite me here, I am going to be rather blunt...
Why don't you just say that you wish not to find God in nature? It appears that is all you are open to. You seem to want to place God outside of anything in nature but yet him sit on the guidleines and somehow give him credit to be the owner of it. It makes no sense. Why don't you just admit that in your mind God has nothing to do with nature and lets move on.
Rob Osborn
Rob:
In theological terms, God is the essence of our existence. But, that claim does not help me do science. I simply do not know enough about God to fit Him into nature.
It seems to me, though, that if I required God to put the Earth on His shoulders, then I would be reducing His very concept. He would become nothing more than Atlas. Why would the principle of evolution operate any differently than the principle of a spinning Earth? The God I believe in is NOT Atlas.
General comment to all readers:
Not to suggest that my interpretation of D&C 93 is the only possible one, but I find it interesting that shortly after v. 24 equates truth with things as they are, were, and will be, the section goes on to state in v. 30: "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself... ."
I interpret D&C 93:30 as being consistent with my argument in this post. However, I would be interested in and open to any of your alternate interpretations of this verse.
I have a quote for anyone interested I just read. (coincidentally) The quote said something to the effect "Gods understands a world that can produce organisms through law is superior to one that requires miracles." Not that everyone should believe that but I thought it could be a quote of the day for the types of things discussed around here. :)
Post a Comment